Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

topic posted Sat, November 26, 2005 - 12:14 PM by  Amethyst
These have been my experiences, will you please share yours? I might sound rude, like I am judging groups of people, but please keep in mind that I am sharing MY EXPERIENCES, not saying that ALL people under each religious category are the same!!!:

Pagans-
Common Excuses for eating meat: "My ancestors ate meat" and "I'm connecting with the (factory-farmed, tortured) animal", "I'm ____, we have eaten meat since the beginning of time" (Fill in the blank with a (sometimes LIE such as "Native American", "Polish", or any other ethnicity. People use every ethnicity under the sun as an excuse for their meat-eating).

A lot of pagans are vegan or vegetarian, but a lot are not. The ones who are not veg. are usually atleast considerate of the rest of us, although sometimes not. Sometimes ArrowMoonHorn can't have his ritual without his dead animal parts to eat, wear, play with, and sing to...but most pagans are atleast somewhat considerate of veg(etari)ans among them.

Catholics-
Common Excuses: "Jesus ate fish", "Fish don't feel pain", "God created Fish for us to eat on Fridays"

My own personal experience with Catholics and veg(etari)anism has been mostly negative. Nuns at my school would threaten me with the idea of going to hell if I kept "being ungreatful" and not eating the meat on my lunch tray when I was a child. They literally told me that ungreatful children who don't eat their meat go to hell and burn in the eternal fire.

They told me children in other countries are starving and it's a sin not to eat my meat since those children need it. I told them, in a very Honest way, that I wanted them to send my food to those kids everyday since I don't want or need it. I was being sincere, but they thought I was being sarcastic and I got into a lot of trouble for what I said. All adults around me constantly told me that the bible says animals are here for us to eat, and that is their only purpose.

I had ONE teacher who wasn't a nun, and she called herself vegetarian, and she took me under her wing and told me that different people read the bible differently, and to her it says that we are supposed to take care of the animals, not eat them. BUT, she ate fish. That's the typical catholic thing to do, from what my experience has shown me...Call yourself vegetarian, but eat fish because "Jesus ate fish". I am surprised, in an institution where the English language must be spoken properly, even by 5 year olds, or punishments will be given, that the adults would mis-use words and make up their own meaning of words. I'd have to write 100 times on the board if I mis-used a word. She should have had to write "Fish are not vegetables" 100 times.

I've met many many catholic people, and so many of them call themselves "vegetarian" but they eat fish, and often EVERY and ANY sea animal, either using Jesus as an excuse, or by saying "Fish don't feel pain", or "My doctor told me I'll die if I don't eat fish" or one of the other stupid excuses on the list.

NOTE: If sin exists, it was a BIG SIN for the nuns to make me eat meat. After all, MEAT is the reason I got e-coli as a 5 year old child, fell deathly ill for 3 months, and had no use of my kidneys, liver and spleen. Good thing I lived. I wonder how those nuns are doing today, and if they believe in karma yet.

Jewish people-
Common Excuses: (Don't be offended, I'm NOT making this quote up, a friend ACTUALLY said this to me!!!!),
"We Jewish people make up our own definitions for words such as vegetarian, and it can personally mean whatever it means to each person",
"Us Jewish women are princesses, and can call ourselves whatever we want to!"

Some of my Jewish "Vegetarian" friends eat FISH, and that is where the above statements came from...

Jehova's Witnesses:
Common Excuse:
J.W.: "In the new world, everyone will be vegetarian, because the sin of killing will be no more"
Me: "Well, if you know that it is a sin to eat meat, why do you do it now, and wait until the new world comes to stop sinning?"
J.W.: "Preaching vegetarianism is not going to save people and let them into the new world, and introduce them to "The Truth". We can't waste our time on that, when we should be spending it preaching The Truth and giving more people the opportunity to live forever in the new world.
Me: "I thought you are supposed to try and "be good" and not sin now, while you are alive in this world, and that will increase your chances to be chosen to live in the new world, so why not stop eating meat if it's a sin?"
J.W.: "It's a waste of time, we'll all be vegetarian in the new world".

Atheists:
Common Excuse:
Nothing matters anyway. We're all going to die.

General Christians:
Someone actually said THIS to me once:
"I'm vegetarian all year, except on Easter, when I eat LAMB with my church, to symbolize the "LAMB OF GOD". Easter is big in my church, and I am in charge of serving lamb to everyone each year, so I have to eat it, too."
COMMON Answers when I question their meat-eating:
"God put the animals here for us to eat"
"God loves you"
"Jesus loves you"
"God and Jesus love you"

Yes, that's right. The question was "Why do you eat God's creatures, and pay for them to suffer so that you can eat them?"
The answers I got to THAT question were the answers listed above, such as "Jesus loves you"...that doesn't answer my question at all.

POSITIVE things:
*A Christian Vegetarian Group exists, and they spread the word to live a good life and not eat animals.
*African Hebrew Israelites are VEGAN, some of them own the Soul Vegetarian (Vegan) restaurants! :)
*A lot of pagans are vegetarian or vegan
*Aren't Hare Krishna's vegetarian, too?
*Meat and cheese analogs are improving over time, introducing more people to a positive experience with alternatives.





posted by:
Amethyst
Pittsburgh
  • Re: Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

    Sun, November 27, 2005 - 8:45 PM
    Good stuff!

    Yeah, those veg christians are 7th Day Adventists - they have some great food i hear.

    My favorite is from non-veg buddhists. I met my first ones earlier this year and my shock clearly showed. I called them out on it and they said that there are many different paths of buddhism.

    I work with some Hindi from India and they follow me around whenever we have work functions with food and eat whatever I do :) It is kinda cute actually. They have me making them a list of veg* american items so they can try them out. They are gonna give me a bunch of indian spices in return to fuel my beans and rice addiction. They do think it odd that I am full vegan though and not just vegetarian.

    I get shocked alot here in Iowa since alot of people you would think would be veggie aren't, especially in the pagan community :(
    • Re: Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

      Sun, November 27, 2005 - 9:41 PM
      Non-veg buddhists (Jeffz mentioned)...Yeah, makes me mad.

      There is an incredible book on the subject of Buddhism and meat-eating.
      product.half.ebay.com/_W0QQcp...rZ705265

      It was written by Roshi Philip Kapleau. It's a totally incredible, very in-depth book about why buddhists should be vegetarian, why some of them claim they shouldn't be, stories of Kapleau's journeys and experiences with buddhism, meat-eating, animal slaughter and vegetarianism.
      I strongly recommed this book to anyone who might be interested in learning more about buddhist views of animals.

      Lovely story about how I found out about the book!!!:
      When I was in early high school, there was an article in the local newspaper about me, my choice not to dissect in school, my vegetarianism, and a club I started at school for such issues.
      Somehow, the article (pittsburgh) ended up in a Howard Scripps news service report (whatever that is), and Roshi Philip Kapleau read it (in Florida!!), looked up my high school, and sent me a package, addressed to me, at my school's address!!! The teacher was like "Um...Amy...You got a package!"...so funny to get mail at school, hehe!
      So, I opened it, and it was a very nice, encouraging letter from Kapleau, and a signed copy of his book!!! I will never forget his kindness. He touched me for life.
  • ra
    ra
    offline 26

    Re: Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

    Mon, November 28, 2005 - 10:07 AM
    Regardless of the other absurd justifications/rationalizations you should NEVER let them get away with the excuse that fish don't feel pain... Not only do they feel pain but they have very delicate senses in their mouths. They use their mouths like we use our hands. They are so sensitive they can pick out little rocks and things to separate from the food. If they were able to scream then maybe ppl would stop making fishing out to be family fun. Few things upset me as much as the concept that fishing is family fun. Why is it that torturing animals is considered to be a good, wholesome family event? How absurd can you get? The catch-and-release concept is nothing more than brutal, disgusting, torturous slow death. Yeah that's family fun!? Fishing is pure evil IMO.. Imagine reaching for an apple on a tree and having a giant hook impale you and pull you into a place with no air. Do you first die from the wounds or from suffocation? Meanwhile your murderers laugh with glee. How despicable! It just makes me so sad!
    • Re: Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

      Mon, November 28, 2005 - 10:26 AM
      Ra, I also hate the "Fish don't feel pain" junk.
      They will often say things like "It has been scientifically proven that fish don't feel pain" as if they believe you can't argue with science...come on now, they are catholic, they don't believe in science...they pretend they do a little now, just to be closer to the rest of society.
  • Re: Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

    Tue, November 29, 2005 - 9:55 AM
    I don't recall ever reading in the bible (when I read it) that Jesus ate fish.

    My mom used to tell me that there were starving children in Biafra (where is that?). I told her to send my food there. I got a stern look and sometimes a quick backhand for mouthin off.

    A jw came to our place a few weeks ago (they have to make a yearly trip out here) and we had a great discussion about killing and how wrong it is. I think I left her with something to think about.
    • Re: Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

      Tue, November 29, 2005 - 12:30 PM
      Drats, I missed a chance to convert a mormon when they came to my door. I just boggled them by knowing more about their relgion than they did and they left hehe.
      • ra
        ra
        offline 26

        Re: Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

        Wed, November 30, 2005 - 9:05 AM
        Mormons are among the biggest hypocrites on the planet. I'll tell you why. In one of their books of sacred scripture, Pearl of Great Price I believe it is, it says that it displeases god when mormons eat animals unless it's time of famine or extreme weather. Mormons have church parties all the time where they BBQ decompossing corpses. They eat animals daily regardless of if it's famine or not. Like many religions, mormons tend to pick and choose which tenents of their religion they choose to obey. It doesn't get much more hypocritical than that...
        • Re: Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

          Wed, November 30, 2005 - 3:08 PM
          Ew, how aggrivating about the Mormon thing Ra mentioned!

          SOOOOO many people do that...They pick a religion, pretend they are SO religious, and then only follow what they aren't too lazy to follow...but still insist they are super religious.
          • Re: Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

            Wed, November 30, 2005 - 3:26 PM
            Yeah most religious texts are ambiguos on purpose so they can do that I bet.
            • ra
              ra
              offline 26

              Re: Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

              Wed, November 30, 2005 - 5:27 PM
              >Yeah most religious texts are ambiguos on purpose

              This isn't very ambiguos though. I looked up the exact scripture.

              about animals:
              "and it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

              That's pretty cut and dry it seems . It sez their god is pleased when ppl don't eat animals unless it's winter or famine. They simply choose to ignore it cause they're meat junkies. By their own scripture they should be vegetarians at least during the summer months - and that's a literal translation! A more accurate translation is that this god doesn't want ppl to eat animals unless they absolutely have to in order to survive. Barring another ice-age or a post apocalyptic scenerio ppl can still get to their local grocery store for veges so they simply have choosen to ignore this scripture.
              Mormons are unique in that they can change their religion at anytime because their god talks to these 12 old men and the 12 old men tell the believers what he said. It's very convenient to say the least.
              • Re: Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

                Sat, December 3, 2005 - 5:08 PM
                there is also the claer difference between organised religion, self defined and personal religion. quoting scriptures are always a mistake as, like stats they can be manipulated... jesus ate at the last supper? what did he eat? didnt god put us all as overlords over the beasts of the land...blah, blah...

                self defined beliefs is anothe thing and thats harder to shoot down. so what about pagans who eat meat from animals they slaughter? if they respect and give honor to the beast is that "wrong" im less inclined to knock ppl over that. as for other religions that are more "perscribed" well there all full of holes anyway on just about any topic you wish to counter.

                that mormans twist some writings to fit isnt suprising is it?
                • ra
                  ra
                  offline 26

                  Re: Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

                  Mon, December 5, 2005 - 9:28 AM
                  >there is also the claer difference between organised religion, self defined and personal religion.

                  There is a difference but IMO they are all the same thing - myth.
                  I don't believe in a creator. But that's just my opinion.

                  >what about pagans who eat meat from animals they slaughter? if they respect and give honor to the beast is that "wrong"

                  It is absolutely wrong..! Using an animal for ANYTHING is wrong. They are not ours to use. Pure and simple. They have their own lives. For us to use them is slavery.
                • ra
                  ra
                  offline 26

                  Meat junkies

                  Mon, December 5, 2005 - 12:54 PM
                  >quoting scriptures are always a mistake as, like stats they can be manipulated...


                  Some scriptures could be interpreted in millions of ways but this isn't one of them. Like I said - it's obvious, clear, succinct, cut-and-dry and its intent isn't cloaked in mysterious word-play like most scriptures.
                  If you think there are a lot of ways to manipulate the scripture below I'd like to hear some of them.

                  about animals:
                  "and it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

                  I suppose if one were to quibble over the meaning of words like "used" then you could makeup some different intent but I think it's pretty obvious what it means. The fact is mormons ignore this scripture because they are addicted to consuming the corpses, blood and bile of decompossing animals. They are junkies. Meat junkies. Junkies will always find justifications for their actions no matter how absurd or irrational they are.
                  I say this in the name of cheese and rice and rattle day snakes.
                  amen,

                  ra
  • Re: Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

    Tue, December 6, 2005 - 11:01 AM
    Amethyst,
    I share your (and everyone who has replied) aggravation about other faiths and veganism/vegetarianism. For people who follow the Judeo/Christian beliefs who use the Bible to defend eating animals, I tend to use the following:

    Garden of Eden - if you'll note, it says that God gave us the plants and nuts, and "to you they shall be as meat." Eden was totally vegan. People did not get permission to eat animals until after the flood, which quite frankly never made sense to me. Noah saved the animals, and so now we can eat them?

    Jesus is never shown in the Bible to eat, while alive. He offers food to others - the loaves and fishes he creates by his brand of magic. He is not shown eating at the last supper. The only time he eats (and now I've forgotten which book) is *after* he has died and been resurrected. Then, and only then, is he depicted eating fish. But it is symbolic, as he's dead, he isn't *really* eating them.

    The whole dominion over animals thing can be put down to bad translation. The original Hebrew/Aramaic means something much more similar to making us humane stewards of animals - not dominating them. Even so, the Queen of England has dominion over her subjects - but that doesn't give her the right to eat them!

    So much to reply to!
    Pagans who eat meat - yeah, for most of us, our ancestors did eat meat. That was a whole different world. I understand the need to be in connection with our ancestors, and to connect with Mother Earth, but does eating animals raised on a factory farm really do that? No. I'd actually *LOVE* to hear more on this, as I will be giving at least one if not two lectures about paganism/veganism/activism next year. So let's keep that thread going!

    And one more thought about ancestors. While in my archaeology of death class, we learned that the Ice Man from the Alps (about 5,000 years old) consumed a mostly vegan diet - not vegetarian, but vegan. :)

    Fish absolutely feel pain. Fish are animals. Animals feel pain. Therefore, fish feel pain. It's a simple equation. And I love it when fish aren't considered "animals." Where were these people in kindergarten?? I personally love the fact that Catholics don't eat meat on Fridays, so they have a fish fry. Makes perfect sense. And Italian Catholics, for Christmas, have what's called the Feast of the Seven Fishes, where seven different types of fish and shellfish are eaten, because they can't eat meat!

    I don't have much experience with Jehovah's Witnesses - it does sound like they're very hypocritical since their text states that so explicitly.

    Hare Krishnas are vegetarian, but they do eat dairy. Hindus tend to be vegetarian, though once again, most eat dairy (and lower castes will eat meat). There are several lovely quotes from Buddha about vegetarianism, and I believe the current Dalai Lama is one. Eastern religions in general, since most see the world as cyclical (reincarnation, karma, etc.) rather than a straight line like most Western religions, tend to be more tolerant of vegetarianism.

    Yeah, the Catholic Church as a paragon of science - that's a laugh!

    Religions based on text have one major flaw - they're written by MAN. All of them can claim to be written by divine hands, but in the end, it's man who actually *writes* it down. Therefore, followers seem to fib a little. :) The text says something that makes sense when it was written - a lot of the Jewish dietary laws (and should be Christian, only they pick and choose the laws they follow) were really things that can be attributed to the times. They'd eat pork, and some would die (now known as trichinosis). Hmm, maybe God doesn't want us to eat pork. They'd eat shellfish, and some would die. Hmm, maybe God has something against shellfish. They'd see bad things happen, and then they'd make a law about it. Nowadays, people can say, "Oh, that's not the case any more." And so, they pick what they want to believe.

    I've spouted off way too long. I'll leave you all with this:
    Whenever someone tells me that Jesus/God loves me, I respond with, "Yeah, but so does Apollo, and he's *much* hotter!"
    • Re: Common Religious Excuses/Veg. issues

      Tue, December 6, 2005 - 1:26 PM
      I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read Anne's quote:
      "Whenever someone tells me that Jesus/God loves me, I respond with, 'Yeah, but so does Apollo, and he's *much* hotter!'"

      That's such a good one, Anne! I LOVE it! :)

Recent topics in "Vegan Pagans"

Topic Author Replies Last Post
Vegan Samhain plans... Amethyst 0 September 24, 2006
my website Amethyst 2 January 20, 2006
160 groups demand end to whaling veganesh 1 January 9, 2006
may GODDESS return .... Somaadi 0 December 27, 2005
Thanksgiving Plans... Lobo 1 November 23, 2005